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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:17 pm
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:I downloaded your latest link this moring from http://www.yellowled.de/tmp/bulletproof.zip. From the purple colorset:

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#footer {
    font-size: .6em;
    padding: 0.25em;
    border: 0px;
    background-color: #dfdfdf;
}
That's weird. I assure you, in my local file (which is or at least should be the one I uploaded), it says "font-size: 90%;". Let's give this another try with a different filename: http://www.yellowled.de/tmp/bulletproof-20070731.zip.

YL

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:28 pm
by Don Chambers
Works now.... but I think the files were not getting updated on my local drive when I unzipped the last version. The previous zipfile had the 90% in there, but for whatever reason, it was not overwriting my existing file. I think I would take that footer down to about 80%.

But, I really do not understand any advantage going from ems to %. They compute to exactly the same size, at least in our scenario they do. I suppose it does not really matter, but at least it is consistent.

EDIT: Suggest you change #sbsitenav from font-size 100% to 70%. Background image is getting too large. There is only a single background image for both normal and hovered states, and at 100% part of the hovered portion of the image is beginning to show through, and that is at "normal" text size in FF.

Also - we now have a JS folder???? Was that just the forray into equal height columns and needs to be deleted, or is it something else?

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:52 pm
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:I think I would take that footer down to about 80%.
Done.
Don Chambers wrote:But, I really do not understand any advantage going from ems to %. They compute to exactly the same size, at least in our scenario they do. I suppose it does not really matter, but at least it is consistent.
That's exactly it. Also, % is probably easier to understand for new users than em.
Don Chambers wrote:EDIT: Suggest you change #sbsitenav from font-size 100% to 70%.
Done - how about the green stylesheet? It currently has 130% for that, should I reduce it to 100%? I don't have the time to check it myself right now.
Don Chambers wrote:Also - we now have a JS folder???? Was that just the forray into equal height columns and needs to be deleted, or is it something else?
It is used for equal heights columns. It holds the javascript needed for that which user can choose to use or not in the theme options.

YL

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:57 pm
by Don Chambers
Didn't realize you had the JS operational in there with an option. Remember - I'm more focussed on the admin side right now and all these core and plugin modifications! :) :)

The blue and green colorsets do not use background images for the sbsitenav.... but I would still make them consistent in terms of size.

I am in the process of converting the admin stuff over to percentage font sizes. I am maintaining some consistency with the frontend colorsets, but modifying font sizes for "design" reasons where I feel compelled to do so.

Still waiting for input from Garvin so I can wrap up some loose ends, and when that finally happens, I will get you guys the new admin style stuff so you can test drive it yourselves!! 8)

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:41 pm
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:The blue and green colorsets do not use background images for the sbsitenav.... but I would still make them consistent in terms of size.
Finally found the time to look at it myself. I have adjusted all #sbsitenav font-sizes to proper values (100% for purple and blue, 90% for green). I also added a margin-bottom for #sbsitenav li like I did in the horizontal navbar.

And I stumbled across something - Dave hasn't styled blockquotes. Now, I tend to use blockquotes a lot, so I think they should be styled. I'll get to that later.

However, it might take some days this time. Two people have reported problems (IE issues, of course) with my older templates (Did I already mention this? I'm lost. I think I did. Never mind.), so I gotta take care of those first. That's why I have uploaded yet another snapshot so you'll have the latest.

YL

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:53 pm
by Don Chambers
I think there are more problems looming with this switch to percentages! The old method was extremely consistent between IE6 and FF. This new method is not as consistent.

I'm still trying to make it all work consistently in the admin template so when I have reached conclusions in the admin, I will either let you guys know what I decided.

As far as blockquotes, that was one of the things I noticed too when I said we should go through other stylesheets and see what really needs to be styled.

Good luck with some of your old templates and let me know if you need something tested in ie6.

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:10 am
by Don Chambers
I think I am finished converting the font sizes in the admin template to relative. What a nightmare! Especially since the backend is all tables!! :?

Anyway, I can tell you this much: the only consistency I can get between FF & IE6 is to start with body {font-size: 100%} (or 100.01) and go from there.

I realize Dave is a bit busy right now and not actively posting on this thread, but it seems YL & Dave worked out the previous font stuff before I was involved... and I believe he was also testing in Safari, something I do not have access to. I think we need to seriously consider returning to the original font sizing methodology. It might still deserve a bit of improvement here and there, but that stuff was working, and this new style is introducing font and padding issues in ie6 and ff.

BTW - on those site nav font sizes, we need to style the li, not the primary #container. In the sidebar version, the current snapshot also affects the title "main menu" and in the horizontal version, the font size affects the quicksearch box. Style the LI instead and both problems disappear.

Anyway, this relative font sizing, and messing with where we already were has caused some issues we did not have before. Unless a different solution is available, that is an improvement over what we had, but does not introduce new issues, is available, I suggest a full return to the original. I was not entirely thrilled with it, but it was consistent from FF to IE6 and (more or less) worked.

At least, get us back to that point, and I can probably better understand what *MIGHT* be capable of changing, but I think we really need Dave back on this one if he has Safari.

As for the admin template - I cannot proceed further until Garvin implements the changes I have proposed to him in the past several days. I suspect he is busy with other priorities, so I guess I will just wait.

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:42 pm
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:Anyway, I can tell you this much: the only consistency I can get between FF & IE6 is to start with body {font-size: 100%} (or 100.01) and go from there.
My source for the keyword/percentage technique says it's harder to get consistency, but not impossible. I have to admit I haven't tested this since I didn't have access to an IE for some time. I have that now, so I'm going to check it out.
Don Chambers wrote:I think we need to seriously consider returning to the original font sizing methodology. It might still deserve a bit of improvement here and there, but that stuff was working, and this new style is introducing font and padding issues in ie6 and ff.
*sigh* Well, at least I do have a backup snapshot using the old method ...
Don Chambers wrote:BTW - on those site nav font sizes, we need to style the li, not the primary #container. In the sidebar version, the current snapshot also affects the title "main menu" and in the horizontal version, the font size affects the quicksearch box. Style the LI instead and both problems disappear.
Will do.
Don Chambers wrote:At least, get us back to that point, and I can probably better understand what *MIGHT* be capable of changing, but I think we really need Dave back on this one if he has Safari.
Dude, as long as you remember that it was you complaining about the old method first ... :wink: Dave does indeed have a Safari, but we can also use browsershots.org for that.

YL

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:15 pm
by yellowled
yellowled wrote:Will do.
Done. Reverted back to old method, tweaked sitenav font-sizing as you requested, also adapted font-sizes for #sbsitenav li and #footer so even you can read it :wink: zipfile
updated. blockquotes not yet styled.

EDIT: BTW, we had a font-size: 75% in base.css (or style.css) for almost anything inside the #wrapper. I left that out this time, maybe this way it will be easier to understand font-sizing. However, this makes every font a wee bit bigger ...

YL

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:09 pm
by Don Chambers
YL - I am playing around with your latest revision/restoration. If I come up with anything worthwhile, I will email you my revisions.

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:59 pm
by Don Chambers
Just emailed revised stylesheets to YL. Also included is a new purple background image - this one in JPG format. I know we like to use pngs, but that looked like crap in IE6 as the background color was not matching the darkest gradient like it is supposed to. The JPG file is about 1/4th the file size of the png, so there is another incentive to delete the png version and replace it with the jpg. The purple stylesheet has already been modified to reference the jpg.

It was an interesting review of how we got to the font size stuff. Early on, in base.css, we had this:

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body {
   font: 100.01% Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
   text-align: center;
}

#sitenav, #serendipityLeftSideBar, #serendipityRightSideBar,
#serendipityLeftSideBarLeft, #serendipityLeftSideBarRight,
#content, #footer { font-size: 75%; }
and the colorsheets had this:

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#wrapper {
    font-size: 92%;
}
Along the way, some of the base.css styles got switched to style.css, and then picked up an !important, thereby overriding anything in the colorsets. Then someone probably realized it was #wrapper that should have been styled instead of all those other containers, and made that change, but that resulted in the loss of the compounding. Forget about all that for now, let's just get back to the original since I believe that is the best place to discuss the revisions I just made.

So, base.css defines all those containers as 75% and the colorsets define #wrapper as 92%. The colorsets sometimes override the 75% in base.css.... #footer comes to mind, perhaps others. Also note that the #banner is NOT included in the 75%, but every other container is (except #sbsitenav, which is correct as it is within the sidebar).

So, thanks to compounding, our true font sizes, before we ever further define them is 92% x 75% = 69% (except for the #banner, which was only covered by #wrapper). This is what I believe to be the initial cause of confusion as to our true font sizes.... the 75% was buried in base.css (and later style.css) and what we saw was the 92% in the colorset #wrapper.

So, I simply made things a bit more obvious. To get back to the original font sizes, we can a) go back to the original 75% method and realize it is compounded with the 92%, b) start at 69% in only a single declaration in the colorsets (current state of my revisions) or c) move the 69% #wrapper to style.css where the font-size: 100.01% is currently located compliments of YL's last round of revisions. Option C may, or may not, be desireable depending on what you think the blank "colorset" should look like. Personally, I think it should stay where I have it now... in the colorsets. Even though it is common to all 3, it is extremely obvious there and given the nature of what the blank set is supposed to represent, I see no problem with the fact that those fonts are awfully large.

Actually, there is a 4th option. Set #wrapper to something like 80% in style.css which is then overridden by the colorset, but at least the blank set looks decent and the colorsets retain the 69% which, as I mentioned, is much more obvious.

Anyway, as mentioned, the current state is what I said was option b - the colorsets now have #wrapper at 69%. I increased the banner font sizes up approx 25% to compensate for this reduced #wrapper size as the banner was not originally getting compounded down to 69%. I also revised ALL font sizes in the colorsheets to be percentages only. It occurs to me that I did not do that in style.css, but perhaps YL can do that when implementing the suggested 80% on #wrapper. 99.9% of the time, the percentage value is similar to whatever em is already there (ie 1em - 100%).

Let me know what you guys think.

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:27 am
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:I know we like to use pngs, but that looked like crap in IE6 as the background color was not matching the darkest gradient like it is supposed to.
Yes, we like pngs. We also like jpgs. We don't like gifs, and only gifs. :)
Don Chambers wrote:Let me know what you guys think.
Erm, since I just got off from a night shift (actually, I have another 30 minutes), I think I'll have to read that in the morning with a cup of coffee and some time. I tried to skim it, but I didn't understand a word :?

YL

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:45 pm
by Don Chambers
Something else that I do not like is the next/previous page links. At minimum, we need to move the right quote so that it is located AFTER the "next page" text. I dunno if this is an english language thing or not, but I have never liked that appearing before the text.

However, if I can ever get around to finishing all this admin stuff, and actually get back to work on my grey template, I plan to completely change that to the concept presented here:

http://board.s9y.org/viewtopic.php?t=8915

You guys want me to make that revision to BP, or just move the right quote arrow we not have so it appears after "next page"? As I said, I will definitely include the change in my grey template.

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:20 pm
by yellowled
Don Chambers wrote:You guys want me to make that revision to BP, or just move the right quote arrow we not have so it appears after "next page"? As I said, I will definitely include the change in my grey template.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable call, which is why I just added it to our entries.tpl. However, I chose not to do it with graphics, but I switched the raquo and added the title attribute.

Still mulling over the blockquotes. Something else I found: I think I don't like the graphical sbsitenav in the purple colorset. Doesn't look "right", you know?

Anyway, updated snapshot is available. And if I ever have to change the font-sizes again, I'm going to puke :wink:

YL

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:36 pm
by Don Chambers
Looks like you decided NOT to go with font-size: 80% in style.css?? It would only affect the blank option as the 3 colorsets set that to 69%, which is an override, not a compound. No big deal either way.

As far as the purple sbsitenav, that is a designer judgement call. I do not think sidebar navigation is nearly as common as above/below the banner, and if nothing else, it DOES demonstrate how to do a full width background image for sidebar navigation. I say let that one be Dave's call.

I'll try to look over some of the other templates and see if there are other things that can be styled. Things that come immediately to mind are blockquotes, odd/even comments and karma voting.

For blockquotes, I like to use graphical quotes, and I can certainly provide both the CSS and images to do it. However, problem with this is that it requires new quote graphics for different colors depending on the background, so I am not sure it is the best way to go about it for BP. Perhaps the very common left border is sufficient? Perhaps with a slightly different background color for the entire blockquote paragraph? Purple example:

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blockquote {
    border-left: 5px solid #823995;
    padding: 5px;
    background: #F3EDF2;
}
I also like to use italics, but I read somewhere that italics is not recommended due to the fact that it can be difficult to read for visually impaired people.

Speaking of odd/even comments, I personally do not like the default comments.tpl because of only ONE word:

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{cycle values="comment_oddbox, comment_evenbox"}" style="padding-left: {$comment.depth*20}px">
I prefer that to be margin-left (not padding). The "nesting" of comments tends to look better IMHO with margin rather than padding when using background colors or wrapping the comments in graphics. Unless we make this change, comments.tpl is not part of BP.