Serendipity Forums

mgroeninger wrote:Plus, how do we deal with plugins where the developer is not especially familiar with html? (Like myself...) Should I ask Garvin to install all my code and test it before I commit changes? I don't think that solution will scale well.

Without specific user feedback it is extremely time-consuming for a developer to correct problems in a plugin they are not familiar with, even stuff has simple as html/xhtml compliance.

Well sorry to be critical myself: but since when are "developers" not familiar with with HTML? XHTML and such???

Thats sounds like a car mechanic that doesn't know anything about cars????

Please: no offence intended, just curious????

Hi Carl!

The plugin_findmore.tpl has all the proper '&' characters in it (revision 1.4 of the file, but this is already 2-3 months old). Also all <img> tags seem to have the /> in them?!

Best regards,
Garvin

Hi!

Well sorry to be critical myself: but since when are "developers" not familiar with with HTML? XHTML and such???

A perfect PHP developer does not necessarily need to know HTML at all!

Programming and Layouting are two seperate parts. HTML is Layout, PHP is coding. HTML has nothing to do with development, because a principle of coding is logic. HTML contains no logic, only structure.

Thats sounds like a car mechanic that doesn't know anything about cars????

No, it's more like you expect the CEO of BMW to also be able to build cards. That's not the case in most companies.

Best regards,
Garvin

@hgoor you should have 22 errors less?

Ok, just on a note:

Is there a test environment l that we can use to validate stuff?

I am willing to donate some of my serverspace for a test environment for version 1.01 and/or 1.1?

Is it possible/easy to setup 2 separate S9y that run parallel to my main blog? I think it was just a matter of using a different database and directory?

vvdheuvel wrote:@hgoor you should have 22 errors less?

Thanks for the code-cleanup hints, I'm down from 66 to 23, of those 23 a lot are from the YouTube (my bad for just copy & pasting what they tell you to copy & paste), and the SHOUTCAST plugin

@hvdgoor this is the article I was talking about:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
It saves you code (precious space, for the purists) and it makes you W3C compliant! After that only those pesky <br /> and you can claim that great badge from W3C

garvinhicking wrote: A perfect PHP developer does not necessarily need to know HTML at all!

Programming and Layouting are two seperate parts. HTML is Layout, PHP is coding. HTML has nothing to do with development, because a principle of coding is logic. HTML contains no logic, only structure.

No, it's more like you expect the CEO of BMW to also be able to build cards. That's not the case in most companies.

Uhm well obviously making plugins for S9y require that you at least have both skills!

It is more like a car mechanic that knows all about engines, but nothing about the rest of the car.

Without knowlegde of both, you won't be able to build a decent car

Uhm well obviously making plugins for S9y require that you at least have both skills!

Since Garvin already wrote a better response than I could, I'll just add some personal details.

I began writing software using pascal, then moved to c/c++, perl, etc.
I enjoy php because it is a nice little scripting language. I am trained as a mathematician... I program for fun. I would hesitate to call myself a developer, but I do have several pieces of code in Spartacus, so I think the way you were using 'developer' includes me.

If you would like me to stop writing plugins until I learn the xhtml standard I can do that... but I might just get bored with it and go do something else.

Oh, and Hi Garvin! Looks like you have things well in hand (as usual)!

Thanks for that info mgroeninger? But doesn't solve hgoor problem? very constructive?

Hi!

Well, hgoor complaining about developers not knowing HTML is also not constructive, unless he goes and learns coding plugins on his own.

If the choice is between having plugins that have XHTML issues or NOT having a plugin, then I'm quite sure what I would pick.

But that'S not what this thread is about. Let's focus on the problem ahead: We need to put up a list of unvalidating plugins. hgoor has already mentioned the shoutcast plugin, this definitely has bad '<br>'s in it.

IF you compile a list containing bad plugins and what their bad output is, I will fix all of the issues you find.

Best regards,
Garvin

mgroeninger wrote:

Uhm well obviously making plugins for S9y require that you at least have both skills!

If you would like me to stop writing plugins until I learn the xhtml standard I can do that... but I might just get bored with it and go do something else.

Well that would be a personal choice I guess

Personally I have been in the internet business since 1995 as a project manager, and only the really big companies (like Lost Boys/Icon Medialab I worked for) can afford to have 'developers' that only code and then use front-end developers to put the two together.

So it is just a matter of how you define 'developer' and 'programmer'. However, where I come from they need to have a good knowlegde of both, unless, like I said, the company has enough money

But back to your remark: since Open Source is usually a way of collaborating and learning from another (see my opening post), I am more than willing to pitch in some of my time.

What I think we need:

1) test server for current version 1.0.1
2) test server for 1.1 beta
3) people that will add a plugin on test server and some test data & validate the output
4) inform programmers of the result

As to 1 & 2 I am willing to donate serverspace on my Linux server (Ubuntu), but I might not have all the necessary stuf to test ALL plugins (some use stuff like PEAR and or access to outside services...)

Nevertheless: if people are interested why not try to set something up?

@Garvin there's a difference between complaining and giving feedback, there are a lot of non tech users out there who have a problem but cannot fix it themselfs! As a developer we have the option (responsibility) to improve our product and listen to our users (customers). Just my thoughts.

garvinhicking wrote:Hi!

Well, hgoor complaining about developers not knowing HTML is also not constructive, unless he goes and learns coding plugins on his own.

If the choice is between having plugins that have XHTML issues or NOT having a plugin, then I'm quite sure what I would pick.

Well, regardless of the fact: I do not call myself a car mechanic, nor try to be one: I drive a car and see that it's lacking something

So, I try to tell the builder of the car what I think is wrong with it.

If the answer then would be: learn to be a mechanic yourself I think that would not be constructive

I'm just giving feedback, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just tell it like I see it

@hgoor, stop with the personal attacks!! mgroeninger has contributed a lot to this community, probably more than you have.

@vvdheuvel, mgroeninger's background is very relevant if someone chooses to attack his integrity and hgoor's initial query was about the quality of plugin code, not about his specific validation problems.